Educator Roundtable - Recent Comments

National Council on Teaching and America's Future

Peter Henry — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:27:26 GMT

NCTAF, I think I got that right.

Anyway, that's Richard Riley's project and a few other folks. I don't know a lot about them, but they do recommend that teachers have "an outside professional network" to help shape staff development, personal development and to network.

I think it's a recognition that the unions have ossified and most teachers just pay their dues and don't participate in professional activities at all.

Trying to overlay a new organization on top of what the union does and school districts do in terms of teacher development will not be easy.

But, some of us are trying: www.newteachernetwork.net

No real suprise about Spellings

michaelb — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 01:27:01 GMT

Consider that most local boards of education are elected persons with no experience working in schools. They are business people and wannabe politicians who share one experience...they went to school and therefore believe they are qualified to make policy. Sad.

michael

Not a list...

SD — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 19:58:39 GMT

of failed charters, but here is a start on some web sites regarding such schools --
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...
http://www.rand.org/pubs/monog...
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsrepo...
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsrepo...
http://educationintexas.blogsp...
http://www.onpointradio.org/sh...

Post a link to your dissertation here! (snicker, snicker)

We need a PARALLEL POWER STRUCTURE

jdg98 — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:56:20 GMT

USA TODAY had an editorial on NCLB's "Passing Grade"....part of the ramping up connected with Ed in '08?

I LOVE the idea of another teachers' organization. LOVE IT.

How might we become the source for "alternative" data collection and dissemination?

This all takes lots of funding...I admit I am tired too--mostly for having seen the full frontal nudity of the Power Structures firmly in place. My idea comes from my friend, which is to stop trying to change the structures and start creating OUR OWN, and give people ANOTHER place to go...

Hi, Phil.

jlucido — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:47:53 GMT

You know, I have noticed a serious drop off even in our local group here. The message to me is that they are tired and really don't have the energy to fight. One of our own members came out of the closet in favor of school choice. I don't know what's going on. CTA (calif) has recently printed an article in their own magazine that they had a meeting with teachers to "warn them" of the aggressive approaches coming to take over public ed. STILL they have not gotten off their rears to help us organize and rally everyone together to fight this. There's too much of their OWN corporate hierarchy tying things up.

To me, this is the MOST important time period of all. This law is going to go SOMEWHERE in the near future. The Ed in '08 campaign is starting to ramp up with their slyly selected editorials across the country. We need to have a counter punch media wise. I suggest we create a letter directly to CTA, the NEA and any other major union organizations to demand their help in fighting this. We can have everyone electronically sign it and CC it to whatever organizations we can. Maybe if we can make one funding location, and possibly get a grant from one of the unions we could have our own media campaign.

Just thinking.
Joe

I think if we want to branch out and become a teacher's organization

philipkovacs — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:42:11 GMT

we are going to have to be a lot more active than we have been of late...

I see a change of strategy

Peter Henry — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 20:30:42 GMT

coming down the pike.

NCLB is, perhaps, one of the most damaged brands ever in American politics. Certainly, whatever happens next in Washington, it won't be called NCLB. And, should Obama win, which I consider highly likely, then the question will become: what does ER do next?

I hope that we have the courage to stand up to standardized testing and explain how testing has continued to increase year after year from 1980 forward, no matter who was in office, no matter what was the policy reason.

The real culprit here is the need to continue to assess and measure and play with data under the assumption that if we mine more data, we can make better policy. Only, we never do. We just continue to mine for more data, and the places we are mining are in our children's heads.

Whether this organization can sustain an anti-testing, pro-teaching, pro-public funding posture with Obama in office is going to be the question. And whether we can fight off standardized testing, or even just make that a clear focus, is far from clear. Fair-Test has hoed a rough row over the last decade...

The AFT and NEA have all that dues money, which they squander, apparently, on trying to get more people to use their credit cards and purchase car insurance. At least, that's all they send to me.

I believe in an independent teacher's organization, but, as I have long maintained, there is more value in a focus on teaching practice than on politics. Whether teachers will organize and cohere around practice issues on the Net going forward is a question I am determined to see answered.

AESA

Hk Christie — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:34:05 GMT

Philip,

I'll most likely be attending. Please count me in for the discussion.

Methinks

SD — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 03:12:07 GMT

that Sen. Christopher Bond, the Missouri Republican who led the negotiations for the new telecommunications bill has the clearest insight into what the administration expects of its citizens:

"I'm not here to say that the government is always right, but when the government tells you to do something, I'm sure you would all agree that I think you all recognize that is something you need to do."

That is what W, Rod, and Maggie expect, too.

Spreading the Word

Judith — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:37:49 GMT

Outstanding letter. I have posted this on MySpace at http://www.myspace.com/japansa. You will find many items on my profile addressing the negative impact of NCLB.

I posted it too, to my group.

jlucido — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:56:01 GMT

Thanks Marion!

Better late than never!

rishy — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:58:05 GMT

I posted it on my blog a week ago!

http://tinyurl.com/5bbtlv

I've forwarded the link

jdg98 — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:55:18 GMT

to my address book list

ask folks to bcc their addresses as they do so...

Rock on!

The Letter

jdg98 — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:29:48 GMT

is EXCELLENT. To the point and it says it ALL.

Here's to societal wellness.

Dohhh!!

jdg98 — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:22:49 GMT

Calling it just like it is!! I loved Walter Brennan's saying from "The Real McCoys" show:

No Brag, Just Fact.

I was wondering exactly the same thing

tauna — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:33:54 GMT

I'll post a link to the letter at the Democratic Underground. I think there are quite a few teachers and parents there that will sign.

Great job Marion!

Great!

SD — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:00:44 GMT

This needs to be posted on other sites and sent to our many like-minded education and corporate friends. Q - When and how does a cyberspace letter get "stopped" and sent to its intended recipient(s)?

Brilliant

Peter Henry — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 05:29:15 GMT

Keep on 'em everyone.

We can, and must, do better than the status quo.

Bravo, Marion. Truth to power.

Love the linkage to a diverse, multi-faceted economy and how standardization essentially means a centralized model. Let's see how the true believers argue their way out of that analogy.

yes!

tauna — Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:42:44 GMT

That's it..yes. The time is ripe.

There's a whole lot

jdg98 — Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:13:51 GMT

more coverage about the sham and scams leading to NCLB...petition could look a lot prettier at this time, within the climate of seeking Change.

Thanks ~

jdg98 — Fri, 13 Jun 2008 17:49:29 GMT

My you're prompt!

:-)

Curious answered

SD — Fri, 13 Jun 2008 17:44:42 GMT

She was the Assistant Secretary for Elementary and Secondary Education (OESE) and served as the principal adviser to Rod Paige on all matters related to pre-k, elementary, and secondary education. She resigned in January 2003. (http://www.ed.gov/offices/OESE/neuman.html)

Just curious

jdg98 — Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:47:13 GMT

Is the "Susan Neuman" you mention Paul Newman's daughter--of Newman's Own Foundation?

In any case, what is she doing/how is she involved as an "NCLB insider"?

Thanks!!

Yes Charter process is important

monkeyes2 — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 19:21:17 GMT

of course the chartering process is important... but again I argue that to determine if the chartering process is flawed you must be comparing it to something.

I argue further that if the charter school that is born of this flawed (or perfect) process is of 'flimsy quality' you are yet again comparing it to something for it to earn that distinction.

You have a comparison chart in your own head that you are using (subconsciously??) to designate a school (public, private, charter) as flawed or passing. Wouldn't it be extraordinarily useful to begin the arduous process of quantifying those charts and determining which of the items are universal and which must be flexible for the specific community.

As an opponent of standardized testing

Peter Henry — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 17:03:21 GMT

I am not the person to go looking for test comparisons. That would not be apples to apples anyway as most charters are self-selected or exercise selection criteria of some kind.

I understand that the system wants comparisons and studies so that charters can be held accountable just as public schools are, but, most of that external measuring is a lousy way to think of education. And, if it is measured, it will become the defacto curriculum and emphasis of a school.

So, I wouldn't hold my breath around getting to the bottom of the charter situation. Odds are there will be good schools, bad schools and some in-between.

Now a more fruitful study would be to examine different states and see how the "chartering" process works. Ohio, for example, is apparently rife with crony charters and boondoggles. How do they set up charters there in the first place and did that lead to their flimsy quality?

That's the kind of study that would prove valuable, IMHO.

working well or poorly compared to what?

monkeyes2 — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:34:27 GMT

My interest is a listing that compares charter schools to:

1) Other public schools on the same basis as NCLB does with AYPs... that interest is generated mostly by the typical claims that charter schools do a 'better job'. 'Better Job' meaning better standardized test scores b/c that is what the shallow minded argue for in a 'regular' public school.

2) Other public schools on a much broader basis with the measurements being generated by teachers, parents, students and the community at large... I personally do not have 'the list' but I think it should include items such as: evidence of student's desire to learn, evidence of student's desire to ask questions and search for answers... evidence of a rage to master...(anything the student is interested in).

There are public schools and charter schools that work 'well'. To declare this they must measure themselves against something. My initial question though was whether a compilation exists of charter schools similar to the yearly compilations of 'regular' public schools. If this compilation exists I am interested in what they are measuring against to determine their success.

Careful on Charter schools

Peter Henry — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 20:10:16 GMT

I am familiar with Minnesota, the pioneer of charter schools.

There are a ton of issues around charters. OTOH, they allow for innovation, teacher input, decentralized administration, and are generally small and nimble.

OTOH, they are subject to waste, fraud and abuse, cause havoc with public school enrollment and ethnic equity, and the entire process can be manipulated by powerful corporate and special interests for their own benefit and agenda.

But, when they work well, parents see and understand their value, as do students, teachers and the community.

Like all public education, charters are expressions of the community's desire to do right by kids. Some communities get it right, but some are taken over and fed a line of BS by powerful special interests, with predictable results.

I guess what I am saying is that I like the possibilities opened by charters, and, we need to demand much better than corporate outsiders or agenda driven entrepreneurs co-opting the charter process.

But, small, local and innovative are things that we need to stand behind.

Don't hold your breath for apologies

Peter Henry — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 20:02:39 GMT

Just like Iraq, the "I told you so" crowd only gets so much attention and appreciation after the fact.

So, we were right and they were wrong. Way wrong.

They have power and we don't.

That still puts them up on us by a couple hundred media stories a day or so...

oh yeah...that's got thesis written all over it...

philipkovacs — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 17:25:08 GMT

too bad we don't take grad students...are you thinking about anywhere in particular?

Gradute student project perhaps?

monkeyes2 — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:47:42 GMT

Dr. K

maybe graduate school is calling me...

that's a good question!

philipkovacs — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:07:31 GMT

Jim Horn's been keeping good track of charter school atrocities...we should ask him to compile one!

charter school failure listings

monkeyes2 — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 14:25:17 GMT

Does anyone know of a listing of failed charter schools? similar to the AYP listings of NCLB?

i've changed the settings T,

philipkovacs — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 13:18:24 GMT

when you post they'll appear on the top...

Our blog is growing...you beat me to it....i think you need a different title

philipkovacs — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 12:59:37 GMT

WE TOLD YOU SO.

I'll be waiting by my phone for apologies from various bloggers, pundits, and union leaders.

There's a link on my options

jlucido — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 04:34:47 GMT

that says "future promoted diaries". I just used it, actually on accident. On the article, I'm dying to see what the other side has to say on this issue now. Art (the snake from ARN), of course, denies any corporate connection with NCLB. Typical.

HA HA

tauna — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 00:59:30 GMT

I'm glad you did Joe......because I didn't know how to promote a diary to the top! The important thing is that it is there.

How DO you promote a diary? I looked and fiddled around and didn't find how but I won't be surprised when I see that it was right under my nose all along. That's me.

Sorry, Tauna!

jlucido — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 23:40:26 GMT

I didn't see your post. I was just excited and threw it up (no pun intended! :)

Joe

seems like we should be able to get 20 minutes...

philipkovacs — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 02:58:48 GMT

there are benefits to the people who make the software...

philipkovacs — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 02:57:10 GMT

phone

jdg98 — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 22:28:59 GMT

and ask for 20 minutes
- send one to three key players who are articulate, concise
- why he should listen/who benefits: children retain and apply knowledge, society at critical mass juncture, keep good teachers, competitiveness etc...
- points need to be made in a few sentences each and
- with crisp alternatives/action plans

who might the contingent be?

I'll donate toward plane tickets...

right - they fundamentally do not get it

tauna — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 18:43:40 GMT

There is abundant evidence Obama's ear is bent toward Bill Gates and ED in '08. HOW PROFOUNDLY UNDEMOCRATIC IS THAT?

I believe he means well, I want to support him, but I was so disheartened when I read his remarks at a Gates-funded charter school in Denver. His speech sounded like it was actually written by ED in '08 folks: http://origin.denverpost.com/h...

After you read the article, read the 3 comments - chock full of ED in '08 disinformation....almost word for word!

Yes, how do we get Obama's ear?

Thanks Philip!

tauna — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 13:53:06 GMT

Glad you enjoyed it.

This is a treat!

philipkovacs — Wed, 28 May 2008 13:34:48 GMT

nice find T...

it looks promosing...

philipkovacs — Wed, 28 May 2008 05:39:12 GMT

we'll need to send them the dictionary definitions of rigor...

i did not see her apology

philipkovacs — Mon, 26 May 2008 19:30:23 GMT

...i'm glad she said it...but really, where does this hate come from?

fear?

i can't believe i'm saying this but

jdg98 — Mon, 26 May 2008 18:46:41 GMT

at least her apology later on FOX was more of an apology than Clinton's a couple of days ago...and that's not saying much--but it seems to say Some thing.

The polarization we've got going on is what is stunning--so many feel "SO RIGHT". This applies to education as well, for the reasons you explain in your piece Philip--"We know the research...".

Most feel quite sure of themselves.

And from this stance of black/white and wright/wrong (oops ;-o people are just oh so comfortably ambling into, really not just gaffes, but truly disquietingly inappropriate and cruel not so Freudian slips....

thanks!

philipkovacs — Mon, 26 May 2008 13:32:57 GMT

i've been in the garden for days....it's been nice...

WOW Philip

jdg98 — Sun, 25 May 2008 20:05:39 GMT

The JCEPS article is a methodically laid out set of supported lines of reasoning crafted wonderfully for the elevation of, and CALL to arms of our nation's knowlegable, to ACT on behalf of what is Needed...Thank-you for attending to the Macro Level of our cause and hopes.

Your blog was so well-referenced and tackled the points--not bad for such a propagandist celebrity such as yourself....HA! ...that was a Hoot.

Enjoy the Earth in the meantime.
Joni

You can find some responses, including my own

tauna — Sat, 24 May 2008 17:24:42 GMT

to the D.C. Schools Chief article here: http://www.edweek.org/ew/artic...

Here here!!!

jdg98 — Fri, 23 May 2008 18:50:22 GMT

and right ON!

Here is a letter I sent Klein:

jlucido — Fri, 23 May 2008 16:16:53 GMT

Dear Mr. Klein,

The fact that Douglas Avella from IS 318 may be fired for the decision made on the students' part to boycott the end of the year tests is unjustified and
unconscionable. The fact is, the state and city of New York have mired these
kids in an entanglement of testing that delves into the realm of sickening
abuse. Twenty three standardized tests throughout the year, the loss of
recesses, extra test practice time, the loss of physical activity in some cases,
and the narrowing of the curriculum has created an educational nightmare for
families. As an educational leader, you are supposed to lead the teaching
community with CLARITY and WISDOM about what is BEST for kids' learning, as they develop into creative human beings that will be adult citizens of this country. The broad stroke of NCLB, the collective pressure from profiteering test companies, and those who wish to privatize education has nearly destroyed our public school system. The fact is too many studies have shown that the NCLB law is NOT working, standardized tests do NOT improve learning, and that children, when faced with these test anxieties, have dramatic brain changes that block them from truly learning and RETAINING information. Those students at that school were tired of the testing and the military regimentation of the curriculum that they were facing. You need to realize this as these students were brave enough to say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. Do NOT fire this teacher for the actions of students in pain.

Joseph Lucido
Educators and Parents Against Test Abuse
Fresno, CA

very true in a practical way

jdg98 — Fri, 23 May 2008 15:55:51 GMT

I wish we were in the same town to sit down over some beverage and brainstorm.

My first thought is that this cannot come from teachers per se, or them alone. I work in schools as a psychologist and am in a position I think to gather data than teachers with 20-30 students all day/every day....

and I won't think about political clout or attaining respect. Just getting data is I think the most essential action, with no agenda/s weighing the actions down so to speak.

more later. I should uhhhh get to work....

yes...

philipkovacs — Fri, 23 May 2008 13:21:16 GMT

i am behind him 100% and thinking about doing some volunteering in my "free" time...

And Waldorf grads

Peter Henry — Fri, 23 May 2008 04:27:40 GMT

at least the ones that I know, tend to be well-rounded, articulate, engaged, and often frighteningly real and talented individuals.

I am all for teachers taking more responsibility and having more power and getting more respect, whether it is about putting out richer data or being heard by the media, for once.

But, how do we make that happen? I mean really. Most teachers I know are so exhausted, so beaten down, so much a part of the hamster wheel of career and daily survival that there is nothing, nothing that can get them to try things outside the box of their routine.

I could barely even get them to take a stand against NCLB a year ago at a union meeting. Most can't see the big picture and many of the ones who can are just plain cynical.

I'm not "down" on teachers exactly, but rather, from observations, I just don't see much of a political, or even practical social movement toward education reform emerging from their ranks.

Looks like Dr. Kovacz

Peter Henry — Fri, 23 May 2008 04:19:50 GMT

is coming around to understand the leadership and wisdom that is this man Barack--and his fierce urgency of now.

Now is the time. Get on board.

you

philipkovacs — Thu, 22 May 2008 13:37:12 GMT

should also contact the authors of the blogs on the left...have you had Sherman Dorn or Eduwonkette on?

I think this is an excellent point

jdg98 — Thu, 22 May 2008 01:24:00 GMT

"THEY" won't change because one way or the other $$$ is the bottom line....but WE can be the change, to collect and put out some real data.

I love what the Association of Waldorf Schools of North America has done. They have their own pedagogy and schools...They completed a LONG TERM study ("Phase II") of outcomes--from high school teachers, college professors, then--heaven forbid, even EMPLOYERS! They did not assess knowledge or academic skills as much as they got feedback about what kind of PEOPLE and EMPLOYEES Waldorf students were becoming into their young adult years.

Now THAT is data in my humble opinion.

by way of understatement...

jdg98 — Thu, 22 May 2008 01:12:04 GMT

I think he makes an excellent point.

"test well"

Teacher Tammy — Wed, 21 May 2008 22:37:06 GMT

You are the perfect example of my point. Congrats on your successes. Nice to "meet" you, too.

Then we provide REAL data

monkeyes2 — Wed, 21 May 2008 21:25:54 GMT

My point was that we need to provide real data as a counter point to the standardized tests. Sure the states, Feds and magazine publishers will continue to publish the standard test scores or other worthless data such as number of students taking AP classes. Our role should be to compile and publish more relevant information.

As a profession we are struggling with not only how to assess schools, and students but ourselves. We must be the ones to develop and regulate our profession. If we do not, then others will do it for us.